Curse

Avarre · Mar 30, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Avarre would cry, but there are enough faction PvE skills that are excellent to compensate. I'd have to go without my empathy, but it wouldn't hurt my effectiveness any.

WasAGuest · Mar 30, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

I would love to see this along with the following and reasons:

Backfire and Empathy could be used to "lock" a foe down for a few seconds and let the group concentrate on a single foe. Similar in the way Enchanters worked in EQ for those that played that.

Other conditional spells could also be used in a like way.

Doing this, Anet could increase the difficulty of the mobs in the game making them more than a three second take down.

Even better IMO, is to have mobs that would be semi intellegent recognise the danger to them, while "bug" type foes not have a clue why they are getting hurt, but after taking so much damage, they would flee (as they might in nature). This would give different foes some "flavor" rather than the roaches in the desert being as smart as the Charr or Dwarven foes.

The AI having the ability to recognise damage would also be very good. After the last AI update to make mobs run from AoE damage the mobs even from a zero point Lava Font. Even if it does 0 damage, the mobs scatter like roaches. I know, my ranger used it and I had a zero fire magic skill while I used it. If the AI could tell it wasn't in danger and keep attacking, I would have to actually work at killing the foes rather than "juggling" them while hitting them with my bow.

On the same side though, henchies need some major work as well. Not everyone plays in a full group all the time - I can't stand sitting there saying "LFG" or "GLF" for more than 5 minutes.

Putting similar AI in place for the henchies would then be a must and the ability to control them via commands.

Great change, a needed change. Very nice.

Bleidd · Mar 30, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Well like the AoE adjustment, I'm sure it looked good on paper.

Then add it to the playerbase mentality, and you get the nearly only reason Elementalists were ever brought into groups. Fire Elementalists at that, by the way; the other three lines have been in as much demand for PvE as Mesmers.

So the Empathy/Backfire/Spiteful Spirit/etc adjustment, while it looks good on paper, applied to the same playerbase mentality will result in Warriors, Monks, and MM Necromancers dominating the PvE scene, moreso than they already do. Domination Mesmers and Curse Necromancers will have their teeth pulled in the same fashion Fire Elementalists had.

The problem is these adjustments are targetting the classes that are never the majority in a group. How often do you bring two Mesmers? Now take away just Empathy and Backfire. How often are you going to bring one now? Someone mentioned the ability to "lock-down" a mob by preventing him from casting or attacking. Again, that's great in theory. My Geomancer can nearly negate all physical/elemental damage to herself, and reduce a considerable amount for a competent group. But you don't see that in demand, and you won't see "lock-down" in demand for PvE. The brute-force playerbase mentality wouldn't be able to grasp it, regardless of how useful it is.

Avarre · Mar 30, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

The problem is these adjustments are targetting the classes that are never the majority in a group. How often do you bring two Mesmers? Now take away just Empathy and Backfire. How often are you going to bring one now?

Amazingly, there are more useful mesmer lines than domination. If eles can take an AoE nerf right to the fire line, mesmers can take a hit to domination.

but still, /notsigned because I like empathy.

Raptox · Mar 30, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Amazingly, there are more useful mesmer lines than domination. If eles can take an AoE nerf right to the fire line, mesmers can take a hit to domination.

but still, /notsigned because I like empathy.

As long as Ineptitude and Clumsiness still work everything will be okay, right?

(Just capped Ineptitude last night, and it makes me happy.)

Bleidd · Mar 30, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Amazingly, there are more useful mesmer lines than domination. If eles can take an AoE nerf right to the fire line, mesmers can take a hit to domination.

but still, /notsigned because I like empathy.

I realise that, playing an Inspiration Mesmer myself. But I wouldn't say the Elementalist took the AoE nerf well. The profession was already Fire-dependant for any degree of demand in PvE, for reasons I already stated.

I wouldn't oppose the notion if its universal. The problem I have is that its targetting yet another minority of the professions. Mesmers and Elementalists are already the two least-sought after, least common PvE classes. Log into any town and take a head count. oO If you can spot one past the Warriors or swarms of Monk-bots that is.

Avarre · Mar 30, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptox

As long as Ineptitude and Clumsiness still work everything will be okay, right?

You read my mind

Though in Factions, I'm looking at a Recovery build with remorse, overload, hex removal etc... I'd prefer if empathy was still on that list, but it wouldn't be a fatal loss - I'd still deal uncomfortable damage to monsters, and be stronger in support roles.

I agree with Bleidd that it would be a cruel hit to the least-respected pve class. But after all the time I spend saying mesmers are no worse than any class, I can't morally complain about potentially taking a nerfbat hit when eles still lived after theirs.

Cymboric Treewalker · Mar 30, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I would like to add to my previous comments now that I have time.

In order for PvE AI to be better there would have to be limits... how smart is that Charr Scout (lvl 4)... is he really smart enough to move out of the firestorm? Seriously if AI simulating humans is to be done correctly then one should not assume that these beasts are all "uber" smart. Perhaps an intelligence attrib should be added to monsters... the dumb ones do stupid things... the smart ones do smart things...

You know like putting backfire on the warrior/ranger...

or something...

But to blanket make the AI uber-smart and never make a mistake?

We have the AI PvP area... change that up, but leave the PvE roleplaying side alone...

Ende · Mar 30, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

Or maybe Mursaat Elementalists time together to do spikings :P

Ettins using knockdown chains XD

Interrupting/distracting shot by Jade Bows

i just got spiked by a team of avicare (sp?) shooting like 10 arrows at me (all dual shots!) at the same time. my mesmer hit the ground so fast i thought it was gvg. but i guess that was coincidence.

Loch · Mar 30, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Ah, that's right, I started this topic 4 months ago.

My topic is now at 15% DP.

eudas · Mar 30, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

In a way, this can happen. However, choosing to flee may actually give the human team the advantage they need. If you Backfired a Mursaat Elementalist, then it ran away, wouldn't that make it easier to kill the rest of the group before the hex victim returned? It would also make things easy if the Elementalist decided to cast through it, since it would practically kill itself doing so. That's exactly what these hexes should be for; the dilemma that Roza pointed out.

I see what you mean though. Mobs shouldn't have ungodly decision-making skills if they already have a strength and number advantage over human teams.

This line of thinking is missing the point. Monsters are higher level than us, with more hp/mana/damage reduction/special skills, because they need them in order to put up *ANY* significant resistance to humans *AT ALL*. Monsters classically are so stupid that humans can figure out their patterns and beat them using the right strategy easily, so monsters have classically *had* to have higher numbers *because that's all they have*. They don't have intelligence, let alone intelligence to match ours in strategy. Add in better AI for monsters nowadays, and you can reduce the numerical advantages that the monsters need because they won't need them anymore.

To phrase that more succinctly: monsters have to be tougher because they're dumb. make them smarter, and they won't have to be so much tougher.

eudas

qwe4rty · Mar 30, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

I've seen humans cast through backfire, die, get rezzed and cast through backfire again! .. Why should the AI be smarter than the average human?

Who says that was the average human?

noober · Mar 30, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

I haven't read the entire thread, but what would you people think about the idea of this being implimented, then trying to 55 monk with an SS in the UW, or how much HARDER it would be to actually kill something? If you use SS on something, he's just gonna stay put and have a nice day.

calamitykell · Mar 30, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

A thought hit me the other day. Imagine if there was another AI change. A change where enemies could choose not to attack through Empathy, or choose not to cast through Backfire, or choose not to do anything through Spiteful Spirit. This kind of change would bring out the true "damned if you do, damned if you don't" nature of these hexes if enemies sometimes played conservatively and waited some of these hexes out. Note how I say sometimes. Also, enemy choices would be partially determined by the strength of the hex cast on them.

All I have to say is, be prepared. It may happen sooner or later.

I play mostly as a mesmer. By far my favorite character. I want this AI update! It feels so lame just sitting there spamming empathy on as many Stone Summit as I can and simply watching them commit suicide. I do get that's the point of the skill, but... I want the AI change, SS necros be damned.

Murder In China · Mar 30, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Spam Empathy and Spiteful Spirit, now all the monsters do nothing and are vunerable for the whammos to unleash their fury.

Matsumi · Mar 30, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I would agree more with monsters having monster skills, that you can't really out wit in a battle, or study and make up a build for. Like nibble (with the undead) or the one the mursaat use on you. I mean, it just seems unreal that a bug (devourer) has studied the arts of being a ranger, or necromancer, or whatever, and should have the same intelligence as a human would. They could have their own unique monster skills however, and be more fun to combat against. Also, have some that you can't counter or block, so you have to rely more on other team skills or your own to counter them. I don't mind that they run away from aoe damage, I think it would be even better if they made a little retreat or something too while they're on fire or whatever.

Raptox · Mar 30, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You read my mind

Though in Factions, I'm looking at a Recovery build with remorse, overload, hex removal etc... I'd prefer if empathy was still on that list, but it wouldn't be a fatal loss - I'd still deal uncomfortable damage to monsters, and be stronger in support roles.

I agree with Bleidd that it would be a cruel hit to the least-respected pve class. But after all the time I spend saying mesmers are no worse than any class, I can't morally complain about potentially taking a nerfbat hit when eles still lived after theirs.

MoR won't work for me. Why? I don't have a Me/X.

My E/Me survived the AoE nerf by looking at all those Mesmer skills and thinking "Well, I don't get Fast Casting and I can only go up to 12 in an attribute...but I do have a ton of energy. Maybe I can sacrifice a bit of e-management (down to one skill instead of two) for more versatility..."

Seems to work in PvE. Throwing Ineptitude, Clumsiness, and Empathy everywhere isn't flashy, but whatever. I bring along Cry and Diversion, too, just to make taking down monks easier. I never got around to trying Arcanis' direct damage build, but I like Air so maybe I'll give that a whirl too.

To the point at hand, it seems kind of a waste to make so many skills the equivalent of Bug Spray. I don't really have any better solutions, though. And even if such a change were made, how long would it take for human players to say "Okay, the monsters don't do X anymore, now they do Y. Therefore we'll use skills Z and Q instead of A and B." Looking up at this thread, people have already started this process.

Until the monster AI can truly improvise and change at will, humans are still going to be able to pick out patterns in the behavior and exploit them. So, if SS and Empathy suddenly made monsters stop attacking, it just means that they're going to do something else that's predictable. That could be standing around, or it could be running around like headless chickens. Either way, you pretty much know the outcome beforehand and still plan out your strategy in advance, like many before me have said.